Claire Daverley & Lily Evans

Claire Daverley was born in 1991 and has been writing stories ever since she was six years old. After graduating with a degree in Fine Art from The University of Oxford, she began a career in publishing, writing about books by day but penning her own by night. Her debut novel, Talking at Night, has sold in twenty-two languages to date and was nominated in the Debut of the Year category at the Nibbies and shortlisted for the Nota Bene prize. People in Love is her second novel. She lives in Scotland with her husband and spaniel. She is making her way through all the Women’s Prize winners and reading A Girl Is A Half-Formed Thing by Elmer McBride: she calls it “raw and poetic and quite the adventurous reading experience”.

Lily Evans is a book publicist from Swansea, South Wales. After graduating with an MA in English Literature from the University of Bristol, she worked at a literary magazine before starting her career in publishing at Profile Books. She currently works at Penguin Michael Joseph as Press Officer. She lives in North London with her partner and very fluffy cat. She is currently reading Permanence by Sophie Mackintosh, a speculative novel centred around two people having an affair that escape into a utopian world. A lover of fiction that’s “a little weird”, she deems it “uncanny and dreamlike”.

“Working in the industry stoked my love of storytelling, but meant I didn't romanticise the realities of being an author.”

Claire, you worked in digital marketing at PRH before leaving your career to become one of its authors. What first drew you to the industry? Did working in publishing strengthen your ambition to become a writer, or did it sometimes make that dream feel more daunting?

Claire: I could talk about this for hours! I worked at PRH for six years and was secretly writing in my spare time, but it never occurred to me that my debut might actually end up being acquired by the same publisher I worked for. It went out without my name on it initially, but thankfully they didn't change their minds when they found out it was me…!

As for what drew me to the industry… like most people I'd imagine, it was just my love of books. I'd always dreamt of being a novelist but figured that was pretty unlikely, so the best Plan B was to work with books in a different way. You get limited hours on this earth and you spend a lot of them at work – so working with stories in any capacity felt like a good option. My skill set naturally lent itself to comms and digital marketing, so that landed me a job at Penguin in the central brand team: I wasn't actually immersed in the acquiring or publishing of books day-to-day, but was marketing them once they were released. That was inspiring in its own way, being surrounded by great books all the time, but also seeing how readers responded to them online. I was interacting with colleagues but also readers constantly and that reminded me every day of the power of stories and what they do for people.

I don't think it made the dream more daunting. Maybe it would have if I'd worked closely with editorial or sat in on acquisitions, but I was removed from all that. I was very good at keeping my writing life separate from my professional life; the only common thread really was just the fascination (bordering on obsession!) with a really great story and the dialogue around it. Writing is such a personal, intimate practice. I didn't even really talk about it with my non-publishing friends or my family. They knew I loved books, they knew I was writing stories, but they didn't know how serious I was about it.

Plus I never wanted to seem like I was trying to use my job in publishing to get me ahead in my novel writing, and genuinely, I never thought that would be possible anyway. It felt natural to keep it separate. Although one of my work friends told me once, ‘It was an open secret. Everybody knew you were writing on the train to and from work’. So being secret about it wasn't so secret in the end!

Having worked at one of the Big 5, you already had some understanding of how books are acquired, marketed and published. Did knowing the publishing process make the author experience easier, or did your insider knowledge create a different set of expectations and pressures?

Claire: I knew enough about the industry that it didn't feel impenetrable, but as I say, very little about acquisitions and the actual publishing process. A few friends who knew I was writing encouraged me to go to acquisition meetings and just learn all I could, but there was some intuitive part of me that actually wanted to resist that. I knew from going to lots of author talks and writing workshops that writing for the market or trying to be strategic just wasn't the way to go. I wrote what I wanted to write. The best thing to do, I think, was compartmentalise my novel writing from my digital marketing job.

Writing is the craft and publishing is the business. Both are vital and necessary to get stories into the hands of readers, but I never wanted (or tried!) to cross-pollinate the two. I don't think that's a hard and fast rule; I've got lots of friends who work in publishing houses who are writing or who are published. So you don't have to keep things separate, but it just worked well for my own brain.

What I do think was helpful, and I don't mean to sound despondent or cynical here, was I saw how many books were published week on week, year on year, so I was really grounded about the whole thing. I had very realistic expectations. I had zero expectations to be fair. I didn't really daydream about getting published – I hoped for it, but I just focused on the writing and not really the publication possibility.

Working in the industry stoked my love of storytelling, but meant I didn't romanticise the realities of being an author. I think if you're not in the industry, it's very easy to do that. It sounds a bit cheesy but if you want to write a book, do it because you want to write the book, not because you want to get rich and famous.

“Claire knows who she is as a writer, knows what she wants to convey in her books, how she wants to make her readers feel. I don't know how you can teach that kind of authenticity.”

Lily, when you and your co-publicist Frankie first started working with Claire, did you approach the campaign any differently knowing she already understood how publishing works?

Lily: As a bit of background, I’ve been immersed in literary fiction since before starting in publishing – first at a literary magazine, before working at independent publisher Profile Books, and then moving to MJ two years ago.

Neither Frankie nor I had worked on the hardback campaign for Talking at Night – so we had big shoes to fill because it was so great. As a rule, I’d say we approach every book campaign differently, but the fundamentals remained the same regardless of Claire's previous role: having really clear campaign objectives, communicating those with the author and the entire team at all times, keeping author care front of mind throughout the entire process – that all remained completely the same, and those are steps we would take for every single book.

Because of Claire’s previous knowledge and experience working with the MJ team, what we really wanted was to earn her trust and show our expertise because we were coming at it from a fresh perspective. Building trust and a working relationship begins with the campaign, but it’s also great when you find common ground with your author – for Claire and I, this was books and literary fiction, specifically. Perhaps this is where Claire’s previous role played a part – she’s a publishing girlie, so we had that in common!

Claire: I remember meeting you, Lily, for the first time. We went to that beautiful blue bookshop Backstory, and we had a coffee while we were proof-dropping. I just felt like I already knew you. We were getting really geeky about the books we love and talking about Elizabeth Strout and drinking tea. I remember having a moment thinking, ‘this is so great that this is my job’.

From your perspective, what did Claire do particularly well as an author that helped make the publicity campaign a success, and are there lessons other authors or publicists could learn from that?

Lily: Claire is such a joy to work with. One thing that stood out to Frankie and I when we started working on People in Love was how brilliant Claire is at relationship building. She had formed genuine connections with bloggers, retailers and journalists that she carried through from Talking at Night to People in Love.

So then when it came to thinking about who our champions were going to be, we had so many authentic connections that we could pull on. We wanted to make these champions part of the campaign through personalised proofs, along with an amazing influencer event that we held before Claire’s sold-out BookBar event. Claire had remembered so many names and stories of people that she'd interacted with, which meant that they were all genuine about their love for Claire's work and wanted to come out for People in Love. It made such a massive difference because all of those people had their own communities that were shouting about her book.

It seems so small, but remembering people's names that you've done events with is invaluable, and that goes for publicists as well. Our job is built on maintaining those relationships because there's a level of trust that gets built over time, and that's what we really saw with People in Love: they trusted in Claire's work and in her as an author. Claire knows who she is as a writer, knows what she wants to convey in her books, how she wants to make her readers feel. I don't know how you can teach that kind of authenticity.

Claire: I think it's important to say that we couldn’t draw on ‘people I knew in publishing’ because it would’ve been irrelevant: I didn't work with booksellers or that side of the industry at all beforehand… So it’s not like you need prior contacts to be able to build relationships as an author.

It sounds basic, but I think if you work hard and you're nice to people and you care about what you do, you’re going to build authentic connections – and friendships! I have so much admiration and gratitude for booksellers and influencers, and those who support you when your book releases. It's such a surreal experience to make this thing, which you live with on your own for so long – and then there are people who go on to actively champion it, because they've loved it too. It's an unbelievably special phenomenon, and very unique to the publishing industry – and why those connections feel so real. Because it is a business, but it is also really emotional work.

I'm always myself when building relationships but don't get me wrong: there is a performative element to being an author. Being an introvert, getting on stage in a bookshop and talking to a room full of people is not easy or natural. You have to use a different kind of energy. But at the same time, I found it a lot easier than I thought I was going to. I'm not trying to answer any question in an extraordinary way or say something that isn't true about the book I've written. That takes the pressure off having to be impressive, and allows you to talk with genuine enthusiasm about the things you write or read, which I think resonates with people.

“Trust your gut, but also trust the spreadsheets.”

Claire, in leaving your career to write full-time, was there ever a moment when you wondered whether you were making the wrong decision? What's your advice for others who might be considering a similar move?

Claire: There was never a moment when it felt like the wrong decision, but that’s only because it was a very considered, deliberate one that I took several weeks to make. I loved my job, and my colleagues as well, and I know how unreliable any creative freelance career can be. I didn't make any hasty moves. There were many spreadsheets and considerations involved!

But once I’d decided it was possible, I've never looked back, which is not to encourage anyone to be gung-ho about it, but simply realistic. I'd encourage people, whether it's with writing or another pursuit, to ask yourself a list of questions. Can you comfortably support yourself with your advance or whatever other work you might be bringing in? And if so, for how long? Are there other ways you can bring in some income if needed: teaching, lecturing, some other avenue? Do you have children or dependents to think about? I didn't. Or a partner with a steady salary? I did. And are you the kind of person that wants to write all day, every day, or do you think that would drive you mad? There's so many factors to consider.

In the end, it just came down to what I said right at the beginning: I'd always hoped that one day I'd be able to write full time. That had always been the dream, long before I'd actually worked in publishing itself. So when I got that opportunity, I just had to give it my all. I figured if it doesn't work out, if my books don't sell or if I never get another book deal again, I don't know that I'd ever regret the interim sabbatical where I was a full-time novelist.

When people ask for my advice on this, I encourage them not to make any rash decisions. The industry is not going anywhere; you can always go back if you miss it. Very few decisions are truly irreversible. Trust your gut, but also trust the spreadsheets – which is probably the most Claire Daverley thing I’ve ever said!

Ultimately, do what's right for you, do what's right for your life – especially if it's just that another door has opened. Life is for living, and if there's something calling you elsewhere, that probably won't go away. It's good to do things that scare you, things that feel risky, as long as you're being sensible and realistic. Not doing something out of fear isn't a good enough reason to keep you in the same place.

If you could give one piece of advice to someone working in publishing who secretly dreams of writing a novel (or something completely different!), what would it be?

Nothing is stagnant. We're not trees; we can move! It's okay if whatever you're currently working in was the dream at one point and now you have a new dream. There's a fluidity to careers and our professional lives now that was not really the case several generations ago – so many of our skills are transferable. If what you’re passionate about has changed, then it's okay to honour that.

As for my advice for writing if you're in publishing, it's a really obvious one, but write for yourself, not for a readership or for your colleagues or because that's what you think editors want to see. You've got to write from that quiet place inside you that actually has nothing to do with the industry at all, but everything to do with heart and feeling and something you can't quite explain, because the explaining, the marketing, the packaging will come later.

Weirdly – and this links back to if the dream is something else other than writing – you've got to get really quiet and listen. What is it that’s tugging at my sleeve? What is niggling away at me? Just get really honest with yourself.

“I know a lot of authors who feel snubbed or let down by their publishers, or on the flipside, treat them like a service they're entitled to.”

Was there anything uniquely rewarding (or challenging!) about working together on the campaign for People in Love? 

Lily: Claire's communication style and her ability to give really helpful feedback was incredibly valuable. She is very detail-oriented, which meant that after an event, she would notice things that are really helpful for us publicists to know, like: “This question the interviewer asked was brilliant”; “I really like the format of this specific event”; “The bookseller was really attentive”; even “The queue management was or wasn’t great”. We need these small pieces of information to make sure that our events or the media that we secure is the best that it could possibly be for the author and for the attendees – this is how we learn from one another and become better at what we do. I do wonder if that is something that she picked up from her previous role working in publishing and noticing what kind of worked for a campaign and what could be better.

Claire: It's so funny, because obviously the detail-oriented spreadsheet side of me has never gone away – but when I give you a debrief, Lily, it's partly just me as ‘author Claire’ needing to process what’s happened. Especially as an introvert and a perfectionist, I can very easily start picking holes in my own performance or worrying about something I said. I think it became a way of being more objective, which naturally transitioned into more professional feedback. It helped me manage that emotional transition from writing about other people's books on social media to being in front of an audience and talking about my own work. Nobody really teaches you about that – you just end up doing it, so being quite analytical and hopefully constructive about an event is my way of processing and learning for the future.

Looking back now, what is the one thing each of you wishes more people understood about the relationship between authors, publishers and publicists?

Claire: For me, that it’s truly a collaboration: you’re all on the same side, and you all want the same things. You want your book to land with readers and be seen and appreciated for the right reasons. It takes something very special: not just a good book and an excellent team who are efficient or agile or creative or great at relationship building, but a real alchemy between everyone involved to make magic in a saturated industry. 

Whatever happens come publication, you're going to have wins, but you're also going to have things that don't go as you hoped – and if you're all on the same team it just makes the process of working together such a pleasure, whether you're winning or facing disappointments. 

It comes back to treating each other like humans – because publishing is a business, but it is a business built on emotions and connection. You're making something and putting it out there for public consumption, so you’ve got courage and fear and hopes and dreams that you can’t separate from the business side of things. The best teams in publishing really understand that there’s a person behind the product, and they manage to dance between the business priorities and the emotional investment it takes to make a book sing.

I hope it's not too controversial to voice that I know a lot of authors who feel snubbed or let down by their publishers, or on the flipside, treat them like a service they're entitled to. But surely the best way forward is always going to come from everybody treating each other as equals with kindness, with respect, and just knowing that everyone's coming to work doing their best. I try to vocalise my appreciation for my team at every opportunity, and hopefully not in a way that feels false or saccharine, but an acknowledgment of this person working hard on this thing that I made. That works both ways because if sales or performance means an author can't be a business priority, that doesn’t mean that the person behind the book isn’t worthy of your respect. There’s a reason that the mental health of authors is statistically worse post-publication. Love-bombing and gaslighting is a real issue in the industry that nobody really talks about, or at least not openly – aside from a few recent Bookseller articles about it. People are speaking up more and more, but it's a really scary thing to do. You don't want to say anything and put a foot wrong and that be held against you. But it's only with open conversations like this and the great work that the FLIP's doing that we can ensure those things won't be so normalised in future. 

Lily: I couldn't agree more. On a campaign level, making sure that you're creating a space between author, publisher, publicist, marketer, where you can have that kind of open dialogue and you can be honest, and constructive and helpful with each other is so valuable and important. 

Authors should absolutely feel empowered to voice their experiences and their views, because that means that you'll have a better campaign for it. If people are unhappy with what they're doing, that's going to come through, and as a publicist, you would never want to put somebody in a position where they don't feel comfortable. It’s the publisher’s responsibility to create an environment where people feel that they can speak and they're being heard. 

“It’s the publisher’s responsibility to create an environment where people feel that they can speak and they're being heard.”

Finally, could you please both tell us about a woman in publishing who inspires you?

Lily: I am so lucky to work with endless incredible women. In my previous role at Profile and at MJ, my teams have been the best of the best. I have to shout out my co-publicist on People in Love, Frankie Banks-Smith – she is one of the most talented publicists I've worked with. All publicists are very organised, but Frankie takes it to a whole different level, and that really is saying something. She is so on the ball, she’s creative and such a joy to work with. I'm lucky that I get to work with her on multiple campaigns and with Claire as well. It's been a fantastic relationship.

Claire: Can I cheat and have two?

I know I'm biased, but my editor, Clio Cornish at Michael Joseph, because of how much she truly cares, but with the transparency and the honesty with which she always communicates, whether it's with great or disappointing news. Transparency with authors is something that really needs to improve across the industry, and Clio is a stellar example of how you can lead with both clarity and kindness, but without infantilising an author or skirting over the things that might be a little bit tricky to hear.

I think when most people dream of working in editorial, I'm not sure they realise it's not just about having a keen editorial eye and great literary taste, but crucially, it's also about emotional support for their authors. That isn't just a publicist's job, out on the road. The writing and the promotion of a book can be quite a turbulent, bruising experience as well as a euphoric and dream-making one, and Clio is keenly aware that there's a human behind the book. She always brings truth and care and stability and candid expertise to that editor-author relationship. We need more people like her in that overlapping Venn diagram where creativity meets capitalism, which is essentially what publishing is. 

And secondly, in a full circle moment, I want to shout out Ella Horne, one of the original co-founders of The FLIP, of course. We worked together years ago when I was in digital marketing. Her enthusiasm even back then was unparalleled, but her desire to make a difference in publishing and to make real change was so tangible, hence The FLIP.

Every time we cross paths, she's still so energised and optimistic about the industry whilst being very clear on what needs to change in terms of representation and progression. She’s such a consistent voice of ambition and inspiration. Now, she has a new podcast, Stack. I love how she talks about books with such a warm and accessible voice, so give her podcast a listen if you haven't already.

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